Talk:Society of the Black Cloak
"Although it is not clear what drew the evil-doers to this kingdom" :THis is not true, infact, the origianl version fo the article I uploaded, gave the citations, showing that it was the Guidebook to the Land of the Green isles that lead him to the isles. You find that copy in his Abdul's chest. :You removed alot of useful citations, and references, that give the 'exact' details, of all there is to know about the society. :Without proper cititation, you leave open for fan fiction to be incorporated...Baggins 16:45, June 6, 2012 (UTC) And what is about the Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles that makes Abdul decide that this is the kingdom he wants to take over? How he got there is not WHY he got there. Crayauchtin 17:03, June 6, 2012 (UTC) ::Actually according to the "KQ6 Hintbook" the guidebook is the "why". The "how" he got there isn't discussed! It's not as if the Guidebook has a specific directions on how to get to the islands or even where it is located even! Derek didn't even know its barings and the crew he was with when he landed we're all lost for weeks! If you want more specific "why" it's suggested under some of the stuff some of the things said by Cassima in 5/6, Jollo in 6 and the letters between Mordack and Shadrack, that he was looking for a place to take over and the king was ignorant and innocent of enough of the outside world to fall for Abdul's smooth ideas. The innocence and naïveté is mentioned by Detek in his book, and is also one of the reasons he wanted to protect the islands from outside influence and thus didn't mass produce his book. He had foresight that that could potentially happen. Of course Green Islanders preferred their isolation, but that didn't protect Caliphim being manipulated and then killed by an outsider.Baggins (talk) 11:00, August 27, 2013 (UTC) Members {C}"It may be noted thatHagatha and Manannan are suspected of having been members due to their close family ties to Mordack." :Again this is not officially true, as Roberta Williams herself stated that Hagatha was never intended to be a member. It's not 'suspected' in any official source, and Manannan is not ever officially brought up in any official source related to the Black Cloaks, other than Roberta thought about using him in the society, but that idea was not used in the final game.Baggins 16:48, June 6, 2012 (UTC) Infact, I would argue you are already inserting 'fan fiction' in to the details, when you add things that aren't there without proper citation.Baggins 16:50, June 6, 2012 (UTC) Roberta also stated that Hagatha isn't connected to Manannan and Mordack at all, and was her own person which is canonically not true. Is there some reference that states that Hagatha is not suspected of being member outside of interviews? If Manannan is suspected of being a member because of his family ties to Manannan, Hagatha would be as well. It's not fan fiction if it's common reasoning. Crayauchtin 17:03, June 6, 2012 (UTC) ::There is no official source within the games nor the expanded literature, that states "It is suspected that Mananannan and Hagatha are part of the Black Cloak Society". That is clearly a fanmade 'speculation'. Best to just leave speculation out of the main article sections. That is the rule I use over in the KQ omnipedia, and its also pretty much the standard Wikipedia standard. I have the 'suspected bit' down in the "Behind the scenes section' under the 'unofficial' fan section. I stick to only what the sources state about the organization in the background sections, and avoid adding any 'speculation'. It protects things from being misleading. It also puts it clearly in the same realm as every fan group that "suspects that Lolotte and Malicia, and Lucreto", and every other villain are 'part of the Black Cloak Society'. I try to stick to the idea of avoiding the fallacies of 'disproving a negative' or 'proving a negative'. If it doesn't say it, or suggest it, I don't bring it up. ::Also logically speaking if soemeone was a member of MENSA, that doesn't mean that his siblings are 'suspected' of being members of MENSA... Logically speaking if one person is a member of the Democrat or Republican party, that doesn't mean that the other relatives are necessarily "Democrats or Republicans". ::Also to clarify Roberta stated that Hagatha was not brought up in any discussions of the Black Cloak Society, when she was discussing the idea with Jane Jensen. They only thought about maybe bringing in Mannanan. But in the end, they chose not to do that even.Baggins 17:30, June 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::Given that the primary purpose of this Wiki is as a resource for fan writers, I don't think there's a problem with a bit of well-supported speculation. ;) And it's not really a fanmade speculation -- you have three siblings, one of whom was definitely a member and the other of whom was at least present when they met (remember even if Manannan wasn't a member, he was on Mordack's Island as a cat). It's fairly simple reasoning to plug him as a member. And if both of them are members, it's simple reasoning to suspect Hagatha. And all of that is supported by purely canonical information and ordinary logic. I didn't state they WERE members, I said they were suspected. The only reason Hagatha might not be suspected is if they are an organization of purely male members, which is why I asked about that over at KQ Omnipedia -- but with an organization that's so mysterious, without any canonical support I think that's a much bigger bit of speculation than saying Hagatha is suspected of being a member. ::And actually, generally speaking, family members do tend to belong to the same political parties. Not all the time, no, but in general. And MENSA, being an organization for geniuses, one would only assume the siblings were members if the siblings were also geniuses. Given that the Society of the Black Cloak is an organization for evil spellcasters, one would assume the siblings would be members if they were also evil spellcasters. Which they are. Crayauchtin 17:55, June 6, 2012 (UTC) :::Not quite, I know alot of families that are ripping themselves apart in this new age of political hatred... I That's annecdotal, but if you look at statistics its more 50/50 (or 55/45) or similar kind of percentage. I there are statistics that state that more women are democratic and males to be republican. Of course some might be independent, while the othera lie in another party.Not to mention its common for people to change political views throughout their lives and switch parties. So no, I'd call you out on 'general'. I remember reading in the a poly sci textbook I was reading that its much more complicated than that statistically. :::Yet, Magicians' Guild is a society for amatuers, but Manannan is clearly not an amatuer! Just because NRA is a society for gun owners, not all gun owners are members of the NRA. For that matter not all Geniuses are members of MENSA. Not all liberals are members of the Democrat part, or conservatives in the Democrat part... :::But again, you are breaking into realm of speculation, and its better to air on the side of cuation, neither trying to 'prove or disprove' the negative.Baggins 18:36, June 6, 2012 (UTC) :::::That's exactly the point -- I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. Hence the word "suspect". If you go through this whole Wiki you'll note that almost any time the facts about something are unclear, it's pointed out. As I said, it's a Wiki primarily for writers and things like that tend to provide some inspiration. If I'd said something like "Although no one has yet found proof, Manannan and Hagatha are also members" then -- yes -- it would be inaccurate. I didn't say that though. I said they are suspected of being members -- which neither confirms or denies whether or not they are members. It is speculative, but it is well-supported by the canon and not, so far as I can tell, at all denied by the canon. Crayauchtin 19:01, June 6, 2012 (UTC) ::I don't even put down the term 'suspect' on the omnipedia in this instance, because one can could say just the opposite. For what its worth there was a similar discussion like this on the Omnipedia back in the day where people complained, and that was the reason why I went through and made use everything stuck to facts, and the facts only. Avoiding any outside 'suspicions'. ::All suspicions made by fans are moved to the behind the scenes sections. You'll notice that in the sierra wiki policies, its pointed out to avoid 'speculation', and only place it in the 'behind the scenes section'. Basically I would never put it's suspected that hagatha and manannan are not a member (based on comments by Roberta Williams), nor would i put it is supsected that htey are members. Neither can be 'verified' in an official source, and I prefer sticking to a citeable source, not speculation. Even closest to speculation, that I include are "suggestions" by official sources such as Derek or other characters in games or books, where those suggestions exist. ::We have the "Word of God" essentially stating though that she had no interest when making KQ7 and KQ8 to go back to the Black CLoaks, and that's why the idea was never touched on again by her... She had even forgotten about it! It's not like the fan games, where everyone assumes every thing is connected...Baggins 19:32, June 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::But this isn't a Sierra Wiki and the policies of the Sierra Wikis really have nothing to do with this one. This Wiki does use speculation, and has done so in a large number of articles. ::::And, yes, the "Word of God" forgot entirely about the Black Cloak Society and also about basically everything about Hagatha. Which is why I'm saying that the "Word of God" in this case is not as reliable as using basic reasoning using what shows up in the games themselves. ::::However, just for you, I rewrote the sentence to make it perfectly clear, in case anyone had any question whatsoever that there is no evidence either way. Crayauchtin 20:19, June 6, 2012 (UTC) Correspondence Actually in KQ6 and KQC there is no evidence on how the correspondence made it to the Green Isles. The only timing we know is that the letters were they were written over several 'months' and possibly goes back years! The last one was dated a month before KQ6 (it responds to material that goes back almost six months before (the death of Mordack, and the return of Cassima to the castle). So we can be sure that Shadrack was either very slow to respond to Mordack, or Mordack's previous letter in which he told Shadrack about Mordack's death, and Cassima's return took months to reach Shadrack! It took Abdul a month to even finish writing his response letter to Shadrack (which Alexander overheard), or that letter took a month to reach Mordack, and he had just received it (Having just read it, was responding to it)! Seriously, for all we know the letters may be sent by snail mail (sea snails ;)) literally (or maybe by Roc mail)! But I don't think its as quick as you suggest! Also there is no confirmed indication that the Vizier kept copies of his own letters in his room (the context though is that all of the vizier's letters were sent to him, they are 'his' only in that they are corresspondence in his possession addressed to him) Hence the letter written by Shadrack is called the Vizier's Letter in the KQ6 hintbook. They all indicate that they are replies to previous corredpondence by the Vizier (hence he is 'quite the correspondent'). Baggins (talk) 11:50, August 18, 2013 (UTC) : In The Silver Lining, Shamir Shamazle says that Abdul was receiving letters magically through the box. (That's why it's in the Silver Lining section of the article. :P) I'm absolutely certain that's not canonical at all! Crayauchtin (talk) 20:08, August 26, 2013 (UTC) : It actually was in the 'canon' section of the article, I moved it into the TSL, because it sounded more like the quotes made in that game. I added to it to clarify what was said in TSL. It's certainly not supported in KQ6 if you look at all the information!Baggins (talk) 09:36, August 27, 2013 (UTC)